Second part of the answers.
Jump 16
This is 3Lz executed by Yuma Kagiyama in the FS of 2021 Internationaux de France. No call on the edge, GOE marks from +2 to +4, final GOE +1.77.
Your answers:
2 toe loop (5.00%)
3 flip (7.50%)
30 lutz (75.00%)
5 axel (12.50%)
I suspect that if I hadn’t put the first three screenshots there would have been a much greater balance between flip and lutz.
1 no prerotation, correct take off (3.23%)
6 acceptable, correct take off (19.35%)
1 acceptable, wrong take off anyway (3.23%)
9 excessive, otherwise correct take off (29.03%)
14 excessive, and wrong take off (45.16%)
I suppose that in the evaluation of the wrong take off both considerations on the edge and on the way in which he put the blade on the ice have entered. I see both an inside edge and, less clearly, I think more for the quality of the images than for the correctness of the gesture, a take off from the blade and not from the toe pick. Almost half of you think the same as I do (yes, I also see excessive prerotation). For the judges, however, everything is fine, the marks are high. Perhaps it is time for the ISU to better define the rules on prerotation and use better technologies.
Jump 17
This is the 4S executed by Nathan Chen in the FS at the 2019 World Team Trophy. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +3 to +5, final mark +4.02.
1 toe loop (3.33)
28 salchow (93.33%)
1 flip (3.33%)
For the prerotation
11 acceptable, correct take off (39.29%)
13 excessive, otherwise correct take off (46.43%)
4 excessive, and wrong take off (14.29%)
In the 2018-2019 the q rule didn’t exist, so who judged that the jump deserved a q would have considered it underrotated.
7 full rotated (30.43 %)
12 q (52.17%) – according to the rules at that time, underrotated
4 underrotated (17.39%)
Jump 18
This is the 3F executed by Yuzuru Hanyu in the FS of the 2017 World Championship. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +1 to +3, final GOE +1.50.
2 toe loop (6.45%)
29 flip (93.55%)
As for the prerotation
21 no prerotation, correct take off (70.00%)
2 no prerotation, wrong take off anyway (6.67%)
6 acceptable, correct take off (16.67%)
1 acceptable, but wrong take off anyway (3.33%)
1 excessive, otherwise correct take off (3.33%)
As for the rotation
23 full rotated (85.19%)
4 q (14.81%)
The q rule didn’t exist in the 2016-2017 season, and a jump on the quarter was judged fully rotated. Here I think whoever voted q was misled by the screenshots, because Hanyu doesn’t land in the first, nor in the second, but it’s really hard to understand.
Jump 19
This is the 4Lz in the 4Lz+3T executed by Boyang Jin in the SP of the 2018 OG. The jump was judged fully rotated, no call on the edge, GOE marks from +1
29 lutz (100.00%)
When a skater has a correct technique…
15 no prerotation and correct take off (53.57%)
13 acceptable, and correct take off (46.43%)
Jump 20
This is the 4F executed by Shoma Uno in the SP of the 2022 WC. The jump was judged fully rotated, no call on the edge, GOE marks from +2 to +4, final GOE +3.46.
5 toe loop (20.83%)
9 loop (37.50%)
9 flip (37.50%)
1 axel (4.17%)
…and when a skater does have not a correct technique. But don’t say it to the judges, they liked this jump.
1 no prerotation but wrong take off anyway (4.17%)
4 acceptable and correct take off (16.67%)
2 acceptable (despite my typo…), but wrong take off anyway (8.33%)
6 excessive, but otherwise correct take off (25.00%)
11 excessive, and wrong take off (45.83%)
As for the rotaion
7 full rotated (29.17%)
10 q (41.67%)
7 underrotated (29.17%)
Jump 21
This is the 3F executed by Jason Brown in the SP of the 2019 WC. The jump was judged fully rotated, no call on the edge, GOE marks from +4 to +5, final GOE +2.35.
1 toe loop (3.85%)
11 flip (42.31%)
14 flat edge (53.85%)
For the prerotation
5 no prerotation and correct take off (19.23%)
5 no prerotation but wrong take off anyway (19.23%)
10 acceptable and correct take off (38.46%)
3 acceptable but wrong take off anyway (11.54%)
3 excessive and wrong take off (11.54%)
Every now and then I feel that the definition wrong take off is insufficient, I’d like to know why it is wrong. Is the problem the edge? The blade? Other? I thank you for participating in this little experiment, but sometimes I wonder what I could have done to get clearer answers. Between the first and the second day I added a few more options in the answers, but this is the first time that I have do a quiz and it is all a discovery for me too.
10 full rotated (41.67%)
8 q (33.33%)
5 underrotated (20.83%)
1 downgraded (4.17%)
Under the rules of the time, the seven people who judged the jump deserved a q would have called it underrotated. I am afraid, however, that the screenshots have been misleading, because Brown lands between the second and the third, but from the video I worked on I was unable to obtain an intermediate image.
Jump 22
This is the 4S executed by Hanyu in the SP of the 2021 WTT. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +4 to +5, final GOE +4.46 points.
21 salchow (84.00%)
1 lutz (4.00%)
3 axel (12.00%)
At the take off
11 no prerotation and correct take off (42.31%)
13 acceptable and correct take off (50.00%)
2 excessive but otherwise correct take off (7.69%)
At the landing
16 full rotated (80.00%)
4 q (20.00%)
Jump 23 & 23 bis
23 bis (high):
This is the 4Lo executed by Hanyu in the FS of the 2019 GPF. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +2 to +5, final GOE +4.05 points.
23 (low):
This is the 4Lo (same video) executed by Shoma Uno in the FS of the 2022 WC. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +3 to +5, final GOE +4.05.
For Hanyu’s jump:
2 salchow (7.69%)
24 loop (92.31%)
For Uno’s jump:
1 toe loop (4.00%)
2 salchow (8.00%)
21 loop (84.00%)
1 flip (4.00%)
At the take off. For Hanyu’s jump:
5 no prerotation, correct take off (21.74%)
16 acceptable and correct take off (69.57%)
2 excessive, but otherwise correct take off (8.70%)
For Uno’s jump:
7 acceptable and correct take off (29.17)
1 acceptable but wrong take off anyway (4.17%)
12 excessive, but otherwise correct take off (50.00%)
4 excessive and wrong take off (16.67%)
At the landing. For Hanyu’s jump:
5 full rotated (26.32%)
12 q (63.16%)
2 underrotated (10.53%)
For Uno’s jump:
7 full rotated (33.33%)
9 q (42.86%)
5 underrotated (23.81%)
For the judges (in two different competitions) these jumps deserved the same score, the variety of your answers makes me reiterate once more that we need better technologies.
Jump 23 ter
The video from which I took the jump is the same as for jump 19, executed by Jin. I wanted to distance the two jumps a little, not propose them one after the other.
This is the 4Lz in the 4Lz+3T combination executed by Dmitri Aliev in the SP of the 2018 Olympic Games. No call on the edge, GOE marks from +1 to +2, final GOE +1.57.
1 loop (4.35%)
22 lutz (95.65%)
On the identification of the jump we all agree, on its execution…
1 acceptable and correct take off (3.85%)
7 excessive, but otherwise correct take off (26.92%)
14 excessive and wrong take off (53.85%)
4 I was kidding, this is a spin (15.38%)
I know, I shouldn’t have put the last option. I should have asked all the questions seriously, but in this case I couldn’t resist the temptation. But all the judges gave a positive evaluation to the jump, for them there were no problems.
Jump 24
This is the 2A executed by Evgenia Medvedeva in the FS at the 2019 WC. The jump was judged underrotated, GOE marks from –4 to -1, final GOE -0,46.
5 q (27.87%)
8 underrotated (44.44%)
5 downgraded (27.78%)
In the 2018-2019 the q rule didn’t exist, also for the five people who voted q the jump was underrotated.
Jump 25
This is the 4T executed by Hanyu in the SP of the 2014 WC. The jump was judged underrotated, GOE marks -3 (he fell), final GOE -3.00.
20 toe loop (90.91%)
1 flip (4.55%)
1 lutz (4.55%)
At the take off
8 no prerotation and correct take off (34.78%)
1 no prerotation but wrong take off (4.35%)
12 acceptable and correct take off (52.17%)
1 excessive but otherwise correct take off (4.35%)
1 excessive and wrong take off (4.35%)
At the landing
8 full rotated (42.11%)
5 q (26.32%)
6 underrotated (31.58%)
In the 2013-2014 season the q rule did not exist, and a jump of this type would have been considered fully rotated. This is another case where I am afraid that the screenshots have been misleading, because in the third Hanyu has not yet landed. This jump, judged underrotated, could have cost him his first world title.
Jump 26
This is the 4T in the 4T+2T combination executed by Kevin Aymoz at the Autumn Classic International 2019. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from 0 to +3, final GOE +1.33.
16 toe loop (76.19%)
1 salchow (4.76%)
1 loop (4.76%)
2 flip (9.52%)
1 lutz (4.76%)
At the take off
2 acceptable prerotation and correct take off (8.70%)
2 acceptable, but wrong take off (8.70%)
5 excessive but otherwise correct take off (21.74%)
14 excessive and wrong take off (60.87%)
At the landing
4 q (25.00%)
8 underrotated (50.00%)
4 downgraded (25.00%)
With the rule of the 2019-2020 season, even for the four people who voted q the jump was underrotated. Not for the technical panel.
Jump 29
I managed to mess with the files, jumps 27 and 28 don’t exist.
This is the 3Lz executed by Kagiyama in the FS of the 2021 Gran Premio d’Italia. No call on the edge, GOE marks from +2 to +4, final GOE +1.94.
2 toe loop (8.33%)
1 loop (4.17%)
8 flip (33.33%)
3 lutz (12.50%)
10 flat edge (41.67%)
How is it that Kagiyama’s lutz edge a tendency to be flat at best, but the call doesn’t come?
1 prerotation acceptable and correct take off (4.35%)
1 acceptable but wrong take off (4.35%)
6 excessive and wrong take off (26.09%)
2 I need another screenshot for the prerotation, but correct take off (8.70%)
13 I need another screenshot for the prerotation, but wrong take off (56.52%)
GOE marks from +2 to +4…
Jump 30
This is Morisi Kvitelashvili’s 4T. I honestly have no idea what competition it is, I took the screenshots from this video. When will the ISU decide to call the jumps correctly? How many medals were kindly given to Kvitelashvili allowing him to perform twice the same quadruple in the short program and three times the same quadruple in the free skated? How many skaters were damaged?
11 salchow (50.00%)
5 loop (22.73%)
6 I can’t understand (27.27%)
At the take off
1 no prerotation and correct take off (5.00%)
8 acceptable and correct take off (40.00%)
2 acceptable but wrong take off (10.00%)
4 excessive, but correct take off (20.00%)
5 excessive and wrong take off (25.00%)
After I published the first part of the answers, a person on twitter told me that she judged Kvitelashvili’s prerotation of a jump to be correct because she believed it was a salchow. If she had understood that it was a toe loop, she would have thought it excessive. I suspect that person is not the only one who has given the votes like this.
Jump 31
This is the 3A executed by Uno in the SP of the 2019 Internationaux de France. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks -5 (he fell), final GOE -4.00.
3 full rotated (17.65%)
3 q (17.65%)
7 underrotated (41.18%)
4 downgraded (23.53%)
Under the rules of the time, the three people who voted q would have judged the jump underrotated. I confess my perplexity. I understand the doubt between underrotated and downgraded, but for me at the landing Uno is going forward, and it is only after the landed that he completes the rotation. At the moment in which the inclination that will lead him to fall begins, inclination due to the impact with the ice that makes him unbalance, the rotation lacks at least half a turn. Incidentally, this was the first jump in which, watching the competition live, I thought “it’s underrotated” and “I want to see the protocol”. But for the judges it is ok.
Jump 32
This is the 4T executed by Kagiyama in the SP of the 2019 National Championship (season 2019-2020). GOE marks from +2 to +4, final GOE +2.85.
17 toe loop (77.27%)
3 salchow (13.64%)
1 flip (4.55%)
1 lutz (4.55%)
Prerotation
1 acceptable and correct take off (4.76%)
1 acceptable but wrong take off (4.76%)
19 excessive and wrong take off (90.48%)
I hope that growing up has improved, because even here I could have made the joke on the spin.
Jump 33
This is the 4F executed by Daniel Grassl in the FS of the 2022 WC. The jump was judged underrotated, GOE marks from -2 to +1, final GOE -1.01.
2 toe loop (8.33)
6 flip (25.00%)
2 lutz (8.33%)
3 axel (12.50%)
11 non listed jump (ISU, we need a reform!!!) (45.83%)
On twitter they pointed out to me that in some cases the WTF option would have been useful. Here I came close, this is one of the many reasons why the ISU should review the rules and their application. For the prerotation…
22 excessive, as for the take off… can I go back in time and not seen what I saw? (100.00%)
One of the very few cases in which there was a unanimous agreement.
10 q (66.67%)
5 underrotated (33.33%)
Jump 33 bis
This is a comparison that particularly interested me because the two jumps were performed in the same competition, with the same technical panel, albeit on two different days. It would have been better if I had used the flip of the free skate also for Uno, but I only realized the detail after publishing the quiz.
The fist is the 4F executed by Uno (jump 20 in my quiz) in the SP of the 2022 WC. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +2 to +4, final GOE +3.46.
The second is the 4F executed by Grassl (jump 33 in my quiz) in the FS of the 2022 WC. The jump was judged underrotated, GOE marks from -2 to +1, final GOE -1.01.
With this question I think I have put you to the test, because two evaluations had to be made. For the results I think the clearest thing is a table. The yellow rectangle indicates the evaluation of the technical panel, the rectangles with a bold border highlight the cases in which the jumps of the two skaters were judged in the same way. In the rectangles that are found above that diagonal line that is formed, there are the votes according to which the jump of Uno was better than that of Grassl, in the rectangles that are found below there are the votes according to which the best jump was that of Grassl.
For the technical panel the jump of Uno has been fully rotated, that of Grassl underrotated. Your votes are split exactly in half. Three of you considered Uno’s jump full rotated, none of you thought the same thing of Grassl’s jump. But for 9 people Grassl’s jump deserved a q, only 5 would have been more severe. 11 people would have made a call, more or less severe, on Uno’s jump, but Uno has not received any calls. Different judgments, between you, and between you and the technical panel, and I wonder if the technical panel could not have been influenced by the different palmares of the two skaters. Competitions are played on details like this, also because the doubts aren’ on just one jump. If the ISU wants the competitions to have any credibility, it must soon introduce an AI capable of evaluating the rotations of the jumps, the prerotations, the flips and lutz edges and a whole series of other details, also on other elements, such as the correctness of the positions in the spins. Otherwise the results will be determined by how likeable a skater is to the judges.
Jump 34
This is the 4S in the 4S+3T combination executed by Hanyu in the FS of the 2017 WC. GOE marks from +1 to +3, final GOE 2.43.
21 salchow (100.00%)
With Hanyu very often there are no dubts. At the take off:
5 no prerotation and correct take off (23.81%)
15 acceptable and correct take off (71.43%)
1 excessive and wrong take off (4.76%)
Jump 35
This is the 4S executed by Uno in the FS of the 2022 WC. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from +2 to +4, final GOE +3.19.
3 toe loop (17.65%)
9 salchow (52.94%)
2 loop (11.76%)
1 lutz (5.88%)
2 axel (11.76%)
Prerotation at the take off:
1 no prerotation and correct take off (5.88%)
3 acceptable but wrong take off (17.65%)
6 excessive but otherwise correct take off (35.29%)
7 excessive and wrong take off (41.18%)
At the landing:
5 full rotated (31.25%)
3 q (18.75%)
7 underrotated (43.75 %)
1 downgraded (6.25%)
Jump 36
This is the 4T executed by Daisuke Takahashi in the FS of the 2012 GPF. The jump was judged fully rotated, GOE marks from -2 to -3 (he fell), final GOE -2.71.
1 full rotated (5.88%)
6 q (35.29%)
6 underrotated (35.29%)
4 downgraded (23.53%)
Under the rules of the time, the five people who awarded a q would have judged the jump to be full rotated.
